And so the contentious issue of the age, as somehow arrived at through looking at Augustine’s City of God, the War in Iraq. I first feel the need to premise this post with an invitation for any responses or discussion from this post to be full of humility, and motivated after a desire to maintain unity within the Church.
Flickr Photo Iraq-N by member photoLuna25
Can we have just War? Many would happily give out one word answers to this, or instead shoot off one liners which were either pro or anti war, but even with the benefit of an indirect relationships to this war, (in the presumption that the readers of this post aren’t leaders of nations nor servicemen and women serving in Iraq) the response to just war in the case of Iraq needs to be approached with as much balanced minds and intelligence as one can muster.
Augustines within City of God speaks of the two cities, the City of God, and the City of Man/Pagans/the World, the characterisation of these cities can be in their actions: The City of God, in their acts of charity, preferring their neighbour and bringing Glory to God, this is the characteristic of the City of God (of which Christians are called to be a prt, the small c catholic Church), and the City of Man, which is characterised by self interest, promotion and gain. Augustine argues that the root of all sin is pride, but that all desire peace (even if this is imagined differently) Therefore even those who go to war desire Peace as the outcome, and the peace desired by the rulers of the City of Men is described as the ruling over people in such a way that subjects them into living like the ruler, and therefore agreeing with his rule. Augustine goes on to argue that the Warring ruler simply desires to subject the conquered into the rulers peace, and to make them his/her’s people.
Augustines arguement in regards to just war seems to detail that if the War is loving the neighbour, as characterises the City of God then it is a Just war (please disagree with me here if you read Augustines differently, as I am certainly no experienced Augustine scholar).
So the discussion within the class turned to that of a just war, in regards to many within the class using the Iraq War as an example where "America" (there were Americans in the room agreeing with this, so not just full of Europeans and Africans) attempts to subject Iraq into its own idea of peace, its ideal of democracy. Now this would seem to line up with the desire of the City of Man which is to subject people into the sameness which creates agreement. Although another interpretation of the Iraq War could be describe (which I partly for the sake of advocacy argued) that in fact, America could be seen as prefering their neighbour, as the decision to take Saddam out of power indeed liberated the many peoples he opressed during his time in power.
It would seem though that War although generally justified on the grounds of applaudable reasoning (WWII: Nazi Attrocities, Iraq: Oppresion of the Kurdish (we’ll forget the embarassing Weapons of mass destruction 6 months I suppose) War cannot be seperated from sinful and seflish nature, for example in post war Germany America profitted greatly from the BMW and Ford contracts it won, and eqaully the Halliburton contracts and countless other won for American firms in Iraq.
But the imperial city has endeavored to impose on subject nations not only her yoke, but her language, as a bond of peace, so that interpreters, far from being scarce, are numberless. This is true; but how many great wars, how much slaughter and bloodshed, have provided this unity! And though these are past, the end of these miseries has not yet come. For though there have never been wanting, nor are yet wanting, hostile nations beyond the empire, against whom wars have been and are waged, yet, supposing there were no such nations, the very extent of the empire itself has produced wars of a more obnoxious description—social and civil wars—and with these the whole race has been agitated - Augustine City of God Against the Pagans - Book 19 Chapter 4
Although I thought to argue on the side of Just War for Iraq (had the weight in the room been on this side I would argued the other to attempt to balance the arguement, as I see both sides) , it is difficult to applaud American Foreign policy in regards to this, as there have been many other International attoricities in Rwanda, Sudan and Argentina where America did not intervene. I would love to hear some other people weigh in on this subject, as my thoughts are certainly incomplete and subjectve at best.
5 responses so far ↓
1 Clare Young aka Miss Young // Feb 17, 2007 at 12:38 am
OK it’s 12:18am so don’t rely on everything I say to make sense but here goes.
There are MANY issues here so let me raise a few questions.
1. Was/is the war a form of defence? ie was the country a threat? [this is where weapons of mass destruction is a very important issue]
2. Was the war a form of punishing the governement (or leader) for doing something which broke UN laws?
3. Did those enetering the war believe that they were fighting on behalf of ‘ordinary people in that country’?
4. What attempts were made to secure (future) peace before the threat, or decleration, of war?
5. Do we have the right to (and/or should we) get involved in a country where there is institionalised racism/discrimination/oppression?
6. Does the end justify the means?
7. Does the term ‘war’ really cover what is happening?
This may not have helped but there is far too much going around about the war which is fairly meaningless.
I’d just like to add that I think Tony Blair did what he thought was right.
Is war ever justified? Well somewhere there has to be a line that people cannot cross without consequences. Countries should defend themselves. But more trust, discussion, honesty, prayer and love is needed. We live in a fallen world where things cannot run smoothly and we cannot always say “We have done the right thing.”
2 Liam // Feb 20, 2007 at 11:20 am
Claire, thanks for your comment, seeing as you concentrated on the Iraq war Ill reply in terms of that and just on your first few questions. Ive tried to keep in mind that they are questions,
Your first point regarding whether or not a country is a threat is one that is quite subjective as the countrys we consider allies are a potentially in terms of military and economic power quite a threat to other countries.
To your second point, I think war is an extremely blunt instrument to punish a leader of a nation, thats why their are human rights triunals etc.
For your third point, Im not sure what ordinary is, as no-one is particularly ordinary, but Im am going to take it that you mean majority, again Im not sure rule of the mob is quite a sensible christian ethic to comply to, though I take your point on protecting people from injust acts, though there are many other ways in which to do this, and it doesn’t count as a very good argument as the nations which chose to fight this war also chose to ignore the rwandan genocide and other such injust actions by nations.
I would have to disagree with this I think, just in terms of Jesus’ message of how many times to forgive, and the turn the other cheek narrative in the gospels, to me this seems to speak of complete forgiveness but more than that a willingness to be wronged. You were very gracious and open in your questioning, I hope I have been similarly gracious while bring my comments on them. Thanks again for commenting
3 Clare Young aka Miss Young // Feb 20, 2007 at 4:53 pm
Thanks Liam, firstly I’d like to point out that I am not putting forward a pro war or anti war message but wanted to point out some of the fundamental issues. I totally agree with many of your points. We cannot say who is a threat to whom based on military strength otherwise where will it end?! I was just pointing out that people were led to believe that attacking a country was a form of ’self defence’.
On the point of punishing leaders - the fact that war is a very serious and damaging way to do this is exactly the point I was trying to make. Where was the UN in this situation?
But yet again this was put forward as a reason to go to war or at least a benefit of war.
Yet again on this idea of projecting those being oppressed I am in agreement with you. Not only is it being ignored in other countries it happens within our own country. We could ‘justify’ a war in ANY country. However I understand that very serious injustices are happening where the UK could be doing more.
I stand by my statement. My statement was meant in the broadest sense not just a reflection on political situations. I don’t believe we could live without any laws, justice system and punishment. It is not about being unforgiving and not showing mercy. All people need bounadries. For example children need to know that their actions have consequences. Yes this needs to be done in love not with your own self righteousness guiding you. But being a Christian does not mean that you ignore injustice. We are called to stand up and speak out for those who cannot do so themselves.
Like we have said though war is a very extreme ‘answer’. If I saw one child bullying another are you suggesting I should not punish the child because I should allow them to wrong others and myself. This is ludicrous and dangerous. OK so I’m not going to use violence (and think we both agree that is not our preferred method of disciple) but I am going to use my power and influence to show the child that this type of behaviour is unacceptable. NB I would also try to get to the reasons behind the behaviour.
I know I have deviated from the topic of war but I get so much more passionate when I’m arguing rather than agreeing!!!! :)
Clare (x) (no i in my name btw)
4 Randall // Mar 3, 2007 at 10:48 pm
“But the wise man, they say, will wage just wars. Surely, if he remembers that he is a human being, he will rather lament the fact that he is faced with the necessity of waging just wars; for if they were not just, he would not have to engage in them, and consequently these would be no wars for a wise man. For it is the injustice of the opposing side that lays on the wise man the duty of waging wars; and this injustice is assuredly to be deplored by the human being, since it is the injustice of human beings, even thought no necessity for war should arise from it. And so everyone who reflects with sorrow on such grievous evils, in all their horror and cruelty, must acknowledge the misery of them. and yet a man who experiences such evils, or even thinks about them, without heartfelt grief, is assuredly in a far more pitiable condition, if he thinks himself happy simply because he has lost all human feeling.
–Augustine, City of God, Book XIX, Chapter 7
We should hate all wars
5 Liam // Mar 5, 2007 at 3:25 pm
Thanks for the quote Randall, its handy to hear Augustine again on this. Though what do you think in regards to just wars, can the war be truly just and is there an example of a war without this imperalism spoken about before contained within its acting against injustice.
Look forward to your response
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