Comments on: War and Augustine

By: Liam

Liam — Mon, 05 Mar 2007 15:25:36 +0000

Thanks for the quote Randall, its handy to hear Augustine again on this. Though what do you think in regards to just wars, can the war be truly just and is there an example of a war without this imperalism spoken about before contained within its acting against injustice.
Look forward to your response

By: Randall

Randall — Sat, 03 Mar 2007 22:48:38 +0000

â€œBut the wise man, they say, will wage just wars. Surely, if he remembers that he is a human being, he will rather lament the fact that he is faced with the necessity of waging just wars; for if they were not just, he would not have to engage in them, and consequently these would be no wars for a wise man. For it is the injustice of the opposing side that lays on the wise man the duty of waging wars; and this injustice is assuredly to be deplored by the human being, since it is the injustice of human beings, even thought no necessity for war should arise from it. And so everyone who reflects with sorrow on such grievous evils, in all their horror and cruelty, must acknowledge the misery of them. and yet a man who experiences such evils, or even thinks about them, without heartfelt grief, is assuredly in a far more pitiable condition, if he thinks himself happy simply because he has lost all human feeling.

–Augustine, City of God, Book XIX, Chapter 7

We should hate all wars

By: Clare Young aka Miss Young

Clare Young aka Miss Young — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:53:39 +0000

Thanks Liam, firstly I’d like to point out that I am not putting forward a pro war or anti war message but wanted to point out some of the fundamental issues. I totally agree with many of your points. We cannot say who is a threat to whom based on military strength otherwise where will it end?! I was just pointing out that people were led to believe that attacking a country was a form of ’self defence’.

On the point of punishing leaders – the fact that war is a very serious and damaging way to do this is exactly the point I was trying to make. Where was the UN in this situation?
But yet again this was put forward as a reason to go to war or at least a benefit of war.

Yet again on this idea of projecting those being oppressed I am in agreement with you. Not only is it being ignored in other countries it happens within our own country. We could ‘justify’ a war in ANY country. However I understand that very serious injustices are happening where the UK could be doing more.

I stand by my statement. My statement was meant in the broadest sense not just a reflection on political situations. I don’t believe we could live without any laws, justice system and punishment. It is not about being unforgiving and not showing mercy. All people need bounadries. For example children need to know that their actions have consequences. Yes this needs to be done in love not with your own self righteousness guiding you. But being a Christian does not mean that you ignore injustice. We are called to stand up and speak out for those who cannot do so themselves.
Like we have said though war is a very extreme ‘answer’. If I saw one child bullying another are you suggesting I should not punish the child because I should allow them to wrong others and myself. This is ludicrous and dangerous. OK so I’m not going to use violence (and think we both agree that is not our preferred method of disciple) but I am going to use my power and influence to show the child that this type of behaviour is unacceptable. NB I would also try to get to the reasons behind the behaviour.

I know I have deviated from the topic of war but I get so much more passionate when I’m arguing rather than agreeing!!!! :)
Clare (x) (no i in my name btw)

By: Liam

Liam — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:20:33 +0000

Claire, thanks for your comment, seeing as you concentrated on the Iraq war Ill reply in terms of that and just on your first few questions. Ive tried to keep in mind that they are questions,

Your first point regarding whether or not a country is a threat is one that is quite subjective as the countrys we consider allies are a potentially in terms of military and economic power quite a threat to other countries.
To your second point, I think war is an extremely blunt instrument to punish a leader of a nation, thats why their are human rights triunals etc.
For your third point, Im not sure what ordinary is, as no-one is particularly ordinary, but Im am going to take it that you mean majority, again Im not sure rule of the mob is quite a sensible christian ethic to comply to, though I take your point on protecting people from injust acts, though there are many other ways in which to do this, and it doesn’t count as a very good argument as the nations which chose to fight this war also chose to ignore the rwandan genocide and other such injust actions by nations.

Well somewhere there has to be a line that people cannot cross without consequences.

I would have to disagree with this I think, just in terms of Jesus’ message of how many times to forgive, and the turn the other cheek narrative in the gospels, to me this seems to speak of complete forgiveness but more than that a willingness to be wronged. You were very gracious and open in your questioning, I hope I have been similarly gracious while bring my comments on them. Thanks again for commenting

By: Clare Young aka Miss Young

Clare Young aka Miss Young — Sat, 17 Feb 2007 00:38:55 +0000

OK it’s 12:18am so don’t rely on everything I say to make sense but here goes.
There are MANY issues here so let me raise a few questions.
1. Was/is the war a form of defence? ie was the country a threat? [this is where weapons of mass destruction is a very important issue]
2. Was the war a form of punishing the governement (or leader) for doing something which broke UN laws?
3. Did those enetering the war believe that they were fighting on behalf of ‘ordinary people in that country’?
4. What attempts were made to secure (future) peace before the threat, or decleration, of war?
5. Do we have the right to (and/or should we) get involved in a country where there is institionalised racism/discrimination/oppression?
6. Does the end justify the means?
7. Does the term ‘war’ really cover what is happening?
This may not have helped but there is far too much going around about the war which is fairly meaningless.

I’d just like to add that I think Tony Blair did what he thought was right.

Is war ever justified? Well somewhere there has to be a line that people cannot cross without consequences. Countries should defend themselves. But more trust, discussion, honesty, prayer and love is needed. We live in a fallen world where things cannot run smoothly and we cannot always say “We have done the right thing.”